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From: Chuck Simmons
Organization: You jest.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.33 i586)
Subject: Re: micro trainer? please help?
References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <3D9E5B3B.AD78ECD1@webaccess.net> <email@example.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 13:56:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 06:56:24 PDT
Richard Steven Walz wrote:
> In article <3D9E5B3B.AD78ECD1@webaccess.net>,
> Chuck Simmons wrote:
> >Richard Steven Walz wrote:
> >> In article <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
> >> Al Borowski wrote:
> >> >Depends. Do you want to get into 8051's?
> >> ----------------------
> >> That's an 8085 NOT an 8051. Totally different, it shares a common
> >> instruction set with the Z80 instructon subset used for the CP/M
> >> operating system.
> >My God! People don't remember that CP/M was originally written for 8080!
> >Z80 was an 8080 clone that came out a year or so later with a double set
> >of registers and a few more instructions.
> Yeahbut, the 8080 was a piece of shit that needed two or three other chips
> to constitute a complete processor, and it required three different
> voltage supplies. The 8085 was the culmination of the Intel design in
> that instruction set, and then Zilog came out with the Z80 to compete with
> the 8085! With the team that left to form Zilog, both the Z80 and the 8085
> were nearly designed by the same bunch of guys, just with different
> architectural philosophies regarding address multiplexing on a processor.
When the 8080 came out, everybody had to have substrate bias for NMOS. A
later inovation was to build the substrate bias supply on the NMOS chip
as a switchmode charge pump type supply. CMOS came along in the early
1970s and required no substrate bias but it was very slow. Anyway, the
8080 was NMOS prior to moving the substrate bias supply on chip. I think
the original Z80 was also NMOS. I can't remember the process used for
the original 8085 but it may have been HMOS. Of course everything went
nuts with the 8086, Z8000 and 68000 all roughly in 1980. The Z8000 had
little success. The 8086 was destined for the IBM PC and the 68000, the
top performer of the pack, went into Apple Lisa and Sun workstations.
However, to me, the selection of a trainer can be an architecture
related thing. The 8085 is a von Neumann architecture. The von Neumann
architecture is by far the most important because it is the architecture
found in all high end processors I know about. The PIC, the AVR, the TI
DSPs are all Harvard architecture setting them apart as being niche
market devices. So the question is what the trainer is supposed to train
a person. A von Neumann architecture trainer prepares a student for main
stream computing as we know it today. The Harvard architecture is really
out of the main stream and typically lives in the embedded controller
niche. There are real differences in programming the two architectures.
I sort of grew up with von Neumann architecture and feel like I am
wearing a straight jacket when I have to deal with a Harvard machine.
... The times have been,
That, when the brains were out,
the man would die. ... Macbeth
Chuck Simmons email@example.com
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