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/iframe></center><br><br> <br><br> </center> </td></tr> </table> <center> <table> <tr> <td width="600"> <center><hr width="400"><font size="2"><b>The <a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a> Usenet Archive Feeds Directly<br>From The Open And Publicly Available Newsgroup<br>Sci.Electronics.Design<br><br>This Group And Thousands Of Others Are Available<br>On Most IS NNTP News Servers On Port 119.<br><br><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a> Is NOT Responsible For Any Topic,<br>Opinions Or Content Posted To This Or Any Other<br>Newsgroup. This Web Archive Of The Newsgroup And<br>Posts Are For Informational Purposes Only.<br><br></b></font><hr width="400"></center> <center><font size="2"><pre><b> From: bigcat@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) Newsgroups: sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,alt.engineering.electrical,sci.electronics.repair Subject: Re: Boosting output from 120V inverter Date: 27 Oct 2002 16:05:47 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Message-ID: <a7076635.0210271605.3497d633@posting.google.com> References: <0001HW.B9DF7C5F00256614162B2870@news.covad.net> <1035612214.15888@news.orcon.co.nz> <0001HW.B9DFECA2002E26AD162B2870@news.covad.net> <urmjla6ig76rb2@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.107.224.5 NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Oct 2002 00:05:48 GMT OK. Lets go... First, loading up the TF will tend to take it out of saturation, not into it. Re the difference heatsinking makes, lets look at TF heat paths. Youve got copper winding, which is an around 80% solid copper block, with the remaining 20 or so % being mostly air. So thats a good heat conductor. Then youve got the metal / air interface, which we know is a poor conductor of heat. Youve also got the iron core which is intermediate in conduction. So the big heat loss block is the metal / air interface, and fan cooling increases that heat flow point greatly. Thats why fan cooling makes such a big difference. Lets throw a number up. Say the breakdown point is 200C, and the TF gets upto 100C on its outer winding surface - I'm picking easy numbers here. Now if we reduce the outer winding surface to 50C by fanning, the temp drop across the copper has gone from 100C to 150C. So the hotspot temp wil be the same with 1.5x the power diss in the TF. And with heatsinks and aggressive fanning one could hopefully do better than that. Actually no, I assumed there all the hewat was dissed at the hot spot, whcih of course it isnt. So we should get better figs than that IRL. Bottom line, I think its do-able, but of course not risk free. >I couldn't have said it better myself. It's foolish to risk damage. And I'd say it depends what youre driving. If youre powering the fridge or a light I wouldnt worry unduly. The control tronics is not going to suffer from heat, and a brief soak test will check that runs properly - eg driving some light bulbs. From then on I doubt the thing is suddenly going to start putting out excess V, so you could run almot anything off it without worry I think. Power failure would be the real risk. Obviously this is not a risk free project, and you live with the results - which will most likely be positive I tihnk. >>If you're real determined, theres always the outer edge option of >>putting the TF in a well heatsunk tin full of oil - no fan power then. >as long as you cool the oil somehow. otherwise it will just heat up >slowly and then stay just very hot for a long time. as you say, >passive cooling may work, just so long as you watch the temperature of >the oil to make sure it stabalizes at a reasonable temperature. Yup. If the TF is put in oil in a tin, I'm thinking one automatically has larger contact surface with the air, plus considerebale thermal capacity of oil too. I would choose thin oil - well, I wouldn't choose oil at all really. >You have to consider that each winding in the transformer is an inductor >(easily thought of)... Now each of these seperate inductors will be >designed such that they have a maximum saturation current equal to the >maximum current the device is rated at. Any current higher than the >saturation current will begin to cause a much faster rate of heating, you >will begin to lose serious wattage through the iron and copper losses of the >transformer. Couple this with the normally very tight windings of small (as >these kind of transformers are designed) transformers and you have a serious >heating problem. It's just not worth the extra effort... and... >Baloney! The transformers used in the typical low cost inverter (and I can >speak from experience here) are designed to run close to their saturation >limits. Push them harder (even if you cool them) and they start going into >saturation. I've always understood that more load will reduce saturation effect. Certainly it will send copper losses way up, but I'll address that. Am I wrong? >You may not be able to get much more out of the transformer because the >resistance and leakage inductance may be limiting the output power. Lets see, invertors are normally specced at around 90% efficient: now even if we attributed every last drop of that loss to TF copper losses, we could still get far more power output. I dont think R is a limiting factor myself. Could you explain how leakage inductance would affect it? Thats something I'm not so hot on myself. >Unless you understand the principles of high frequency transformer design, >and can redesign for higher power throuput, you should forget about the >entire thing. It ain't gonna fly. Well, I bet it will. >Transformers generally aren't the best items to heatsink... They heatsink reasonably well. I've done it before, every microwave oven I've ever seen does it too. Try running an old zapper with no fan, it wouldnt survive long. The fan makes a sgnificant difference. I'd be interested to hear what happens if you try it, I am optimistic myself. Regards, NT </b></pre></font><hr width="650"><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/electo-index.html"><font size="3">Go Back To The <a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a><br>Usenet Web Archive Index Of<br>The sci.electronics.design Newsgroup</font></a><br><br></center></td><img src="http://cyber-spy.com/cgi-bin/livecntr.pl?0+1+unetsci" width="1" height="1" alt="The Cyber-Spy Toolkit - powerful internet spy software - live police scanners - usenet fbi secrets archive - newsgroup spy electronics archive - search engine spy tools - download TCST today!"> </tr> </table> </center> <center> <br><center><hr size="3"></center> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" border="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><small><b><i><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/index.html">Cyber-Spy.Com Live Resources</a></i></b></small></td> <td align="right" valign="top"><small> Copyright Alpha Omega Delta,<br> All rights reserved. </small></td> </tr> </table> <center><hr size="3"></center> <br><br> <br><br></center> </body></html>