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/iframe></center><br><br> <br><br> </center> </td></tr> </table> <center> <table> <tr> <td width="600"> <center><hr width="400"><font size="2"><b>The <a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a> Usenet Archive Feeds Directly<br>From The Open And Publicly Available Newsgroup<br>Sci.Electronics.Design<br><br>This Group And Thousands Of Others Are Available<br>On Most IS NNTP News Servers On Port 119.<br><br><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a> Is NOT Responsible For Any Topic,<br>Opinions Or Content Posted To This Or Any Other<br>Newsgroup. This Web Archive Of The Newsgroup And<br>Posts Are For Informational Purposes Only.<br><br></b></font><hr width="400"></center> <center><font size="2"><pre><b> From: Tom MacIntyre <tom__macintyre@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc Subject: Re: Reducing contact resistance for low volt use? Reply-To: tom__macintyre@hotmail.com Message-ID: <o4ik1v0ao33uliaetdl6qnu5drl05gs19q@4ax.com> References: <3df66fb5.14200838@news.pipeline.com> <C.D.H.Williams-1012022324420001@cw-mac.ex.ac.uk> <3df68c6f.21555882@news.pipeline.com> <fgih1vgh1an6517edlmhi3gkidkhkah2i8@4ax.com> <3e190f7b.3476211@news.pipeline.com> <sqvi1v0hlp2nc9m7b8v9da3vl37ptmp4j9@4ax.com> <oa3j1v8qt9nqa820vm20t1klue8684k1h6@4ax.com> <q38j1vsp87uududfqof9muvdn6913fiqsh@4ax.com> <3e1a369c.10223680@news.pipeline.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.570 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 03:27:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.177.224.157 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:27:29 AST Organization: MPowered-Subscriber On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 02:34:34 GMT, jmuchow@SPAMMENOTcamlight.com (John Muchow) wrote: Sorry for the top post, but I would just like to point out that this is one very good way for innovation and development to happen...pushing the envelope, they sometimes call it. Someone finds a simple solution to a small-scale problem, and the next thing we know, it is saving megawatts at the macro level. I am of course not the first to see this... :-) Tom >>>>>>>You have obviously not read the earlier discussion in the same thread. >>>>>>>John is not trying to stay within specs, on the contrary, he is using >>>>>>>these batteries like no battery manufacturer ever imagined they would >>>>>>>be used. >>>> >>>> Which is all but stupid. > >LOL!!! >Obviously, the sport of combat robotics is not for you. Why on earth >would I want to stay within "spec"? It practically guarantees a lost >fight and that could mean my 'bot is spread all over an arena. If I >can draw a lot more current from my batteries, I can run faster, spin >a weapon faster, and generally have a better chance to survive. > >Who cares if the cells don't survive? > >>>>>>>Maybe you could find and read the earlier messages in the thread, I >>>>>>>think it would make you understand what this is all about. >>>> >>>> I do understand. A person is using motors AND batteries in a manner >>>>that is destructive. I am supposed to help? > >No, you're not supposed to help. It's your option to just read the >post and not respond. > >This is COMBAT robotics and things get destroyed...all the time. I >run my 12V drive motors at 24V and they work fine. Do they get hot, >of course! But I know that and it isn't a problem for a 3 minute >fight. I draw approximately 40-amps from each 24V string of 3000mAH >cells (one per motor) and that's no where near "spec" for the >batteries or the motors. And my bot isn't pushing the performance of >its components nearly as much as many others are. > >Even the R/C car and airplane builders use their cells at very high >discharge current levels > >>>>>>>These battle-robot builders regularly take out 30 A for 6 minutes from >>>>>>>3000mAh cells, and 50A for short durations, and they are trying to >>>>>push performance even further. >>>> >>>> All they need to do is put more batteries in parallel with those >>>>already in place. More current per pack, not more voltage. > >How? Most builders are within ounces of their weight limitations for >their robots. And R/C plane and car builders certainly can't add >another string of cells. Especially when the guy next to them is only >running one string at very high current levels (way beyond "spec") >because the cells will last the short time he needs them to. > >>>>>John is probably not counting on getting 100A out of a D cell, but he >>>>>wants to have measuring equipment to try it, to see the difference >>>>>between different cells. >>>> >>>> They all act like they are about to explode at those levels, and >>>>real data about what Mfgrs are better is probably not possible. ANY >>>>Mfgr's battery may or may not fail. > >Perhaps. But, the only way to tell is to test them. Builders don't >want to see discharge curves up to a certain manufacturer spec level >(perhaps 8-10C amps?). That information is almost useless. They need >to see the discharge curves for their application. And the curves >need to be plotted *beyond* the current levels for what most builders >will need. If I saw curves to 40A, then I'd know how my 'bot would >respond. But, what if I wanted to increase the motor voltage, or >change the drive reduction ratio (resulting in more current draw while >running)? We need these curves. And we need to know if there is any >difference between manufacturers. > >In addition, there are applications where the high current levels are >needed for only a few seconds; spinner start-up, high-power solenoids >for weapons activation (mine take over 100A each for 0.5 seconds), >etc. > >Whatever current levels I can get from the discharger, I'll be able to >use. > >>>> Sounds like a kludged way of performing the work. > >Yes!!! <more welcoming to the world of combat robotics) > >>>>If the motors are >>>>low voltage devices, then the batteries would do better to provide >>>>more current *AT* the working, proper voltage. That would mean more >>>>batteries in parallel, AT the right voltage. The when the demand goes >>>>up, the voltage hangs on, and the motor can PERFORM the task the way >>>>it was meant to. AND BETTER at that. > >A great theoretical idea...almost never achieved in our applications. >Weight and budget restrictions are extreme and why use two battery >packs if I can abuse one and still have sufficient performance. Now I >have some money and weight for additional armor. > >>>> What we do NOT do is ask power supplies OR batteries to do more than >>>>they are designed to do. It is simply like asking for trouble. If he >>>>wants more output torque, he should step down the shaft speed with >>>>gear reduction or chain and sprocket reduction. Motor stalls would >>>>cease, and higher speed peaks would be possible when loaded down. > >The entire sport of combat robotics (and to a lesser degree, R/C plane >and car builders) is based on exceeding the specifications for the >components that are used. > >The entire sport of combat robotics is *based* on extraordinary levels >of "trouble". We're only asking what components can be pushed beyond >spec, and how far can they be pushed....the reason for my testing. > >All of these 'bots are already geared down one way or another to >achieve maximum torque at the desired speed. Some are run direct, but >they use the proper sized wheels to limit the speed and current draw. > >But, we want more torque without extra weight. The need for extreme >performance from our batteries, motors, drive systems, etc., way >beyond what the manufacturers think is "appropriate", is common. In >fact, it's mandatory when designing a combat robot. > >>>> He could get just as much data in attempting to charge one up at >>>>100A. The data would look very much the same. Heat up until BANG! > >But, don't need 100A charge currents...we usually limit it to 5A. >We do need MUCH higher discharge current levels though. > >>>> It might sound silly, but so does hitting one that hard on the >>>>discharge cycle. > >Silly? Tell that to all the combat robot builders and R/C plane and >car builders/drivers who want to extract every last bit of performance >out of their machines. > > >John Muchow > >-- Remove "SPAMMENOT" to reply via e-mail -- </b></pre></font><hr width="650"><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/electo-index.html"><font size="3">Go Back To The <a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a><br>Usenet Web Archive Index Of<br>The sci.electronics.design Newsgroup</font></a><br><br></center></td><img src="http://cyber-spy.com/cgi-bin/livecntr.pl?0+1+unetsci" width="1" height="1" alt="The Cyber-Spy Toolkit - powerful internet spy software - live police scanners - usenet fbi secrets archive - newsgroup spy electronics archive - search engine spy tools - download TCST today!"> </tr> </table> </center> <center> <br><center><hr size="3"></center> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" border="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><small><b><i><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/index.html">Cyber-Spy.Com Live Resources</a></i></b></small></td> <td align="right" valign="top"><small> Copyright Alpha Omega Delta,<br> All rights reserved. </small></td> </tr> </table> <center><hr size="3"></center> <br><br> <br><br></center> </body></html>