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/iframe></center><br><br> <br><br> </center> </td></tr> </table> <center> <table> <tr> <td width="600"> <center><hr width="400"><font size="2"><b>The <a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a> Usenet Archive Feeds Directly<br>From The Open And Publicly Available Newsgroup<br>Sci.Electronics.Design<br><br>This Group And Thousands Of Others Are Available<br>On Most IS NNTP News Servers On Port 119.<br><br><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a> Is NOT Responsible For Any Topic,<br>Opinions Or Content Posted To This Or Any Other<br>Newsgroup. This Web Archive Of The Newsgroup And<br>Posts Are For Informational Purposes Only.<br><br></b></font><hr width="400"></center> <center><font size="2"><pre><b> Message-ID: <3E21AAFC.758D@sneakemail.com> From: Mike Monett <z06hgto001@sneakemail.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.cad Subject: Re: Transistor amplifiers v. frequency in SPICE References: <ue912vopntcee0qml7b87gp5mkn8c3vujg@4ax.com> <3E20D1C8.166C@sneakemail.com> <4c30c8fc.0301120453.71a9cca@posting.google.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:50:52 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.209.118.192 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:50:19 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Paul Burridge wrote: > > Mike Monett <z06hgto001@sneakemail.com> wrote in message news:<3E20D1C8.166C@sneakemail.com>... > > Paul, > > > > I have to admire your energy and persistence. SPICE is not easy to learn, > > and you are doing a good job of asking the right questions. > > THanks, Mike. I can use all the encouragement I get! You are entering a brave new world where the results can be highly accurate, or streams of meaningless numbers. SPICE does not have an idiot flag that tells you your model is screwed up, or you are using it in areas where it is no longer valid. You have to figure these things out for yourself. You have to learn a whole new way of thinking, and find out the relationship between the sometimes obscure SPICE parameters and what you are trying to accomplish. Most SPICE programs have quirks that are not well explained in the help files, and you have to keep trying until it finally works the way it should. This can be time-consuming. On the other hand, you never have to worry about poor solder connections or blowing up expensive parts. SPICE will let you explore operating regions that would destroy real parts instantly, and can give you insight on how to prevent this from happening in a real circuit. > > A couple of quick comments. Your SPICE should be able to plot the AC > > response curve instead of having to do each frequency manually. What > > version are you using? > > I think the version is shown on the .ckt file I posted. However, I'll > paste > the instruction line for the AC sweep and maybe from that you can see > the problem. I replied to your post separately. [...] > Thanks for that. The reason for the high value resistors was that I > was > trying to keep Zin as high as possible, since the real signal source > I am modelling has a quite high Z. Yes, I know. Get myself a FET! :-) Getting wide bandwidth from a high-z source can be difficult or impossible. A fet may not help, since it has its own input capacity. You can try boostrapping, but even that has limitations. Another option is to use the virtual short of an inverting op amp. Win has posted informtion on wide bandwidth transimpedance amplifiers for optical sensors, and included some helpful urls. If that would be of interest, I can look them up for you. [...] > > These are simple ways to see how a circuit is working, and to get a > > feeling for the real-world effect of strays. It tells you for wideband > > circuits, you need low impedance which means high current. > > Fascinating. Thanks for a valuable insight into the difference between > SPICEWORLD and the real world! BTW and on this subject, would I be > correct > to assume that SPICE models take no account of component lead-length? > For > example, a real-world coupling capacitor has an optimal value with > minimal > impedance at the desired (radio)frequency due to the inductance of the > leads > creating a series tuned circuit of sorts, whereas the SPICE capacitor > is > "perfect" and bigger (values)are always better and present less > impedance? There are various models for all components, such as capacitors, resistors and inductors. The simplest use only the pure component, and more complex models include the parasitic effects. You have to decide when these become important enough to include in your simulation. Generally, if the parasitic impedances are low compared to the circuit impedance, you can often ignore them. But you have to watch out for things like series resonances that will happen in the real world, such as power traces resonating with the bypass caps. You can often ignore the pin parasitics on ic's until you get to several hundred MHz. Then you have to start thinking about including them in the simulation. There are other cases when they become important at low frequencies, such as the node capacitance to ground on an inverting op amp, or stray capacitance across the bias resistor in a CMOS Pierce oscillator at 32KHz. > > But first thing is to get SPICE to plot the AC response curves for you. > > Lets see if we can help! > > Many thanks again. I'm always grateful for informed input to my > queries. > I'll establish the relevant instruction sequence and append it to this > thread. > > p. Good show, Paul. Mike </b></pre></font><hr width="650"><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/electo-index.html"><font size="3">Go Back To The <a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/">Cyber-Spy.Com</a><br>Usenet Web Archive Index Of<br>The sci.electronics.design Newsgroup</font></a><br><br></center></td><img src="http://cyber-spy.com/cgi-bin/livecntr.pl?0+1+unetsci" width="1" height="1" alt="The Cyber-Spy Toolkit - powerful internet spy software - live police scanners - usenet fbi secrets archive - newsgroup spy electronics archive - search engine spy tools - download TCST today!"> </tr> </table> </center> <center> <br><center><hr size="3"></center> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" border="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top"><small><b><i><a href="http://www.cyber-spy.com/index.html">Cyber-Spy.Com Live Resources</a></i></b></small></td> <td align="right" valign="top"><small> Copyright Alpha Omega Delta,<br> All rights reserved. </small></td> </tr> </table> <center><hr size="3"></center> <br><br> <br><br></center> </body></html>