From: Fred J. McCall
Subject: Re: [NEWS]: Probe: U.S. Knew of Jet Terror Plots
Organization: is for people who don't have real work to do
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 08:04:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 01:04:13 PDT
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
:In message <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Fred J. McCall
:>Vince Brannigan wrote:
:>So for Vince, a murder victim isn't dead until the killer is charged?
:A homicide victim dies. Is the homicide murder? Manslaughter?
Depends on the circumstances. But note that it does NOT depend on
what happens at trial. The facts don't change.
:The determination that a killing is the crime of murder is a judicial
:one reached well after the act. What looks like murder can be turned
:into self-defence: what is claimed as justifiable homicide can get you
:banged up for life.
No, the court determination can be changed. What actually happened
:>My, what a Schroedinger universe he lives in.
:If someone breaks into your house and you shoot him, are you instantly
:and automatically a murderer?
Around here we call that 'suicide'. If he's in my house and I shoot
him, he self-inflicted by breaking in.
:If he came at you with a knife and you
:defended yourself, are you still a murderer?
Wasn't a murderer in the first place, so whether or not he came at me
with a knife isn't relevant.
:What if it transpires that
:he fled and you shot him repeatedly as he crawled away?
Suicide, I tell you.
:How does any of what happened emerge and how are the facts learned?
It's irrelevant to what actually happened. Someone can be CONVICTED
of murder and not have committed murder. Someone can be ACQUITTED and
have committed murder. Those are FACTS.
What the court finds doesn't change the actual facts.
:The Schroedinger analogy is apt.
Well, only for Vince.
:The particle decays, whether we watch
:it or not. But how do we determine what happened?
Ah, but in the Schroedinger case, the EXAMINATION actually affects
what happens. The mere act of examining can cause the probability
function to decay to a different solution.
:In the case of crime,
:it's through a court of law, and both the UK and US have enshrined the
:principle of "innocent until proven guilty".
Under law, not in fact. The facts are what they are. What the court
does or does not do does not change them.
:>:No, actually the issue is whehter they can prove you did it. that is
:>:a perosn gulty of a crime.
:>No, that is what makes them CONVICTED of a crime.
:"Innocent until proven guilty".
In court. But court isn't reality, which is something that Vince
seems to consistently lose sight of.
:Fred, there are stories  that you eat babies for breakfast, worship
:the graven image of Winston S. Churchill, and dress members of the conch
:family in flimsy lingerie for your personal gratification
:Can you _prove_ they are not true?
What I do or do not prove is irrelevant to the facts. Facts ARE.
:Should the burden of proof be on the accuser, or on the accused?
In court or in reality? In reality, there is no 'burden of proof'.
Things are what they are.
:>:prosecutor unilaterally controls whehter the case is brought your
:>Did OJ do it?
:Probability high enough to convince a prosecutor to bring the charge,
:and high enough to convince the jury in a civil case. Enough doubt, real
:or manufactured, to be 'reasonable' in the criminal case, hence his
:acquittal there: enough certainty for 'balance of probabilities' in the
:Simple question, difficult answer. (But you knew that going in.)
:OJ was charged and tried and acquitted. Clinton wasn't even tried.
But does the acquittal alter THE FACTS? OJ was either guilty or he
was not. What the court found doesn't affect that. Clinton did what
he did. What it was is not affected by whether he was tried for it or
: Stories which I have made up entirely out of whole cloth for the
:purpose of this debate, since despite our disagreements I have no
:evidence or belief that Mr McCall is guilty of any greater wickedness
:than an occasional public bout of petulance. Still, since I have now
:told them, they 'exist'.
STORIES exist. The facts are still what they are, no matter what you
might make up. What you say cannot change them.
"Nekubi o kaite was ikenai"
["It does not do to slit the throat of a sleeping man."]
-- Admiral Yamamoto