From: Vince Brannigan
Subject: Re: [NEWS]: Probe: U.S. Knew of Jet Terror Plots
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:37:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:37:46 EDT
Brian Sharrock wrote:
> I draw to the attention of the readers, that Vince is utilising his
> frequent technique of concentrating on one word 'villian' and trying to
> divert the topic away from his original statement 'crimes ... do not
> exist until someone is convicted ... '. If it makes Vince more happy;
> I concede his point and instruct the jury to disregard the word villian
> and substitute the term accused. The jury will of course, remember the
> elephant and consider that the set of villiams contains a large set of
> people who've been accused and a smaller set that've been previously
> convicted. My understanding is that a crimes exists when a law is broken
> and does not rely on subsequent conviction.
when does a "penalty" come into existence in football? when the "event" occurs
or when the official makes an appropriate signal (deliberately not limiting
myself to american football but also including the game the world calls
> Not many people that I know use the word _criem_ so I don't know what
> purpose it serves. Answer the point about Coroners' Court verdicts
> of 'unlawful Killing' does such a verdict have a 'legal structure'?
> Take into consideration that such juries are not allowed to name
> a suspect, not even who they consider to be the villain.
There is an ancient maxim of the the law "Nullum crimen sine poena" which is
translated as No crime without punishment.
Ordinary crimes do not exist separate from punishment. (the maxim has other
meanings, but this is the one which is relevant to this discussion.
As and example
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 51 - HOMICIDE
Sec. 1111. Murder (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being
with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait,
or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing;
or committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson,
escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual
abuse or sexual abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated from a
premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human
being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree. Any other
murder is murder in the second degree.
(b) Within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United
States, Whoever is guilty of murder in the first degree shall be punished by
death or by imprisonment for life;
Whoever is guilty of murder in the second degree, shall be imprisoned for any
term of years or for life.
now when do you know that a "Murder" has occurred? you know when someone is
found "guilty" . The statute does not define murder and then say "whoever
commits a murder"
A jury is asked to determine whether a specific person is guilty of a specific
murder they make both findings simultaneously.