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From: Vince Brannigan
Subject: Re: [NEWS]: Probe: U.S. Knew of Jet Terror Plots
References: <3D919151.firstname.lastname@example.org> Vince Brannigan wrote:
> :"Fred J. McCall" wrote:
> :> Vince Brannigan wrote:
> :> :"Fred J. McCall" wrote:
> :> :
> :> :> The facts aren't "brought to life". The facts are. They are merely
> :> :> examined, such as they may be known, at trial.
> :> :
> :> :so far so good
> :> :
> :> :> This is the difference
> :> :> between being guilty of the crime (in fact) and being FOUND guilty (in
> :> :> law).
> :> :
> :> :the problem is that the first does not exist.
> :> :There is no concept of "guilt" without the finding.
> :> For you.
> :> Frankly, this is a character problem on your part, I think.
> :personal abuse noted and ignored.
> It's not abuse. It's an opinion. Note the "I think" at the end?
If yo say to a judge "I think you are an asshole" do you suspect he will still
find you in contempt?
> :> :> Yes, the law varies from place to place. If I violate the law IN
> :> :> FACT, I AM guilty. If I get caught and convicted, I am FOUND guilty.
> :> :
> :> :do you have a cite for this opinion?
> :> It's not opinion. It's a matter of the facts.
> :then it shoudl be easy to cite a table written in stone, or on paper or even
> :elctoricnally that says that guilt exts outsideof the court room and the
> :legal sysem can "discover it" like an explorer discovering a new continent.
> :It doenst and they can't.
> All you have to do is pull your head out of, uh, the courtroom, Vince,
> and take a look at a dictionary. You know, that book that defines the
> language that THE REST OF US speak?
The world construes in accordance with its wits. when my bridge partner passes my
1 no trump opening despite having 9 pints and a balanced hand I math think its a
crime, but the law does not. similarly a broken engagement may cause feelings of
rage and distress, but its not a crime. the world does what it likes.
> Main Entry: guilty
> Pronunciation: 'gil-tE
> Function: adjective
> Inflected Form(s): guilt·i·er; -est
> Date: before 12th century
> 1 : justly chargeable with or responsible for a usually grave breach
> of conduct or a crime
> Note that it doesn't say convicted. It says "justly chargeable",
> which means that the person has in actuality violated the law, whether
> or not the court ever figures that out.
and its not a legal definition. It would suggest that a person "unjustly" charged
or responsible is not guilty, which is clearly nonsense. it also by its own term
applies to conduct which is not a crime. AS i posted earlier a pardon
eliminates guilt so it cant be a historical fact.
> :> :> Consider this simple thought experiment. Suppose that I am indeed in
> :> :> your hypothetical jurisdiction where defense of property is not
> :> :> allowed and I shoot the burglar. We then go to court for trial and I
> :> :> further lie under oath about what happened, explaining to the court
> :> :> that I was in fear for my life and therefore shooting him was simple
> :> :> self defense. Suppose further that the court believes my statements
> :> :> contrary to the fact and finds me innocent.
> :> :>
> :> :> Your position is that no crime was therefore committed.
> :> :
> :> :the facts are the facts, but no crime is declared
> :> Declared is not the same as committed. Have one or more crimes been
> :> COMMITTED in the case described above, yes or no?
> :you are "convicted" of a crime by a court
> Yes, you are, but that is not responsive to the question. Were one or
> more crimes COMMITTED in the case described? Yes or no? It ought to
> be simple.
The court said you committed no crime. the legal system has no other sytem for
declaring that a crime was committed except by finding a person guilty.
a crime being "committed" is not a severable legal concept. It's the sound of
one hand clapping
> :> Now, if one or more crimes have indeed occurred, even if not
> :> 'declared', someone is obviously guilty of committing them, even if
> :> never charged and convicted.
> :you logic is false. you are begging the quesion by starting by assuming the
> :answer that you must demonstrate, ie. that a crime has occurred. events have
> :occurred. we simply do not know if a crime has occurred.
> Of course we do. We know precisely what the law says. Given all the
> facts as things actually occurred, we know whether those events
> contravened the law. It's really quite simple, if you just stop
> trying to avoid the question.
events cannot contravene the law. only people can. You have to connect the
people to the events in the legal systme and declare them guilty
FWIW we have not even gotten into the issue of the jury being also the judge of
the law, a doctrine known as jury nullification
> :ill use an analogy. when is a work of art "finished" It is finished when
> :the artist declares it is finished. If the artist dies before making the
> :declaration. we have no idea if it was finished. crimes are the same kind
> :of declaration. its not very complicated.
> Using an inappropriate analogy is not exactly a winning tactic. Can
> you point to a book or set of books that defines 'finished' for a work
> of art? I can certainly point to such things when it comes to what
> are and are not violations of the law (what all of us but Vince call
cite a legal source that says that the legal system declares criems committed int
eh absence of a convicition
> :> We seem to be getting somewhere here, which leads me to believe you
> :> will decline to give a yes or no answer to the question and we will
> :> instead see more vocabularic obfuscation.
> :more abuse.
> It wasn't abuse. It was a prediction. A prediction which you have
> now shown to have been correct.
no content. ignored
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