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From: "Crow Manyon"
Subject: Re: LIBTR; BCP; BC; VAN; VANG: Father Bugger The Lay Priest, Pun Intended. :ASS
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 14:59:42 EST
Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:59:42 GMT
> The Pandamia of evil sociopathic perverts in the Catholic Priesthood
> is getting plenty of exposure, and I can't help but think that is a
> good thing, especially when I am a Roman Catholic and belong to a
> religion and am of a country (US of A) that allows me the right to
> think, question and debate issues.
Last I heard you were in Vancouver; I didn't know that BC had becum a state.
> Fact one/Question: The ignorance of priests is no doubt a problem,
> this "they are misunderstood and mentally ill" bull shit. Sociopaths
> are incurable evil low lifes.
The legal profession is full of sociopathic types, and they tend to be
prevalent in politics. Most of the folks on this NG were happy to have a
notorious sociopath who shoulda been put in jail for perjury and obstruction
of justice as POTUS. Your characterization of sociopaths fits him to a T.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the pedophile priests try the ole "victim
of sexual addiction" ploy the Clintonites rolled out during the impeachment.
Note that this could serve PL's well: we could say we're victims of "lapp
addiction" insteada saying we're pervs. And ... it's politically correct!
> This isn't personal, it's just a fact;
> a sociopath has no business being a priest or out of any prison.
We've got a long way to go. See above.
> Fact Two/Question: Priest and so on could stand to know something
> about sociology, psychology and psychiatry; they seem rather ignorant
> regarding this.
You don't need higher education to know that cornholing young boys is wrong.
The current scandal is due to moral turpitude of the clergy combined with
abuse of power by the heirarchy in obstructing justice. Both are crimes in
> Fact Three/Question: The Catholic Church (TRC) gets sued and all
> parishoners and dioceans get the shaft, why should they and their
> children suffer because and individual defrauds the church and
> violates their vows. Whether it's some lieing Cardinal or some
> perverted paedophile? They shouldn't. This is unjust.
The Roman Church has authority over all its clergy, etc. Therefore it can be
held accountable when its clergy (including heirarchy) commit crimes. This
is just another way that the Roman Church victimizes its parishioners. The
obvious solution is to exercise your freedom of religion and join a
> Fact Four/Question: One Reason for some assumed cover ups can be
> the presumption of innocence
Our courts are there to make determinations of guilt or innocence. They
can't do this when there is obstruction of justice.
The coverups are due to the Church's "holier than thou" attitude and belief
that it is the ultimate moral authority. They hid the truth because they
wanted to keep their parishioners under their thumbs. The priests wouldn't
be able to boss anyone around if the parishioners knew they were sinners and
This also undercuts the Roman Church's goal of eliminating abortion and
birth control. If the Roman Church can't control the sexual behavior of its
own clergy why should it presume it can micromanage the sex and/or
reproductive lives of free Americans?
> and the separation of church and state clause
> that both institutions follow.
The First Amendment prohibits the Federal Government from establishing a
state church. The Roman Church wants to make its dogma part of American law,
thus violating the spirit of the First Amendment. Subsequent case law also
prevents any state from establishing a state church. The First Amendment
does not give any religion immunity from American law.
> The church needs to assess and try a
> accused priest before ousting them and having the authorities get a
> shot at them,
This is known as obstruction of justice. The church has a legal obligation
to report crimes to the secular authorities in this country, so the secular
authorities can make the determination of whether to press charges.
> and if the authorities want them first, they have to
> operate in the same manner.
The First Amendment does not place any religion above the secular
authorities in this country. You seem to advocating the situation in the
Middle Ages, when the Roman Church's clergy were above the laws of mere
states. This is the attitude that got the Chuch into legal trouble to begin
with. It also violates the obligation for Christians to obey the secular
authorities as per the Book of Romans.
> Naturally a conviction in the US courts
> should be enough for a priest to be defrocked.
It should be, but I wouldn't bet on it.
> Fact Five/Question: Innoncence till proven guilty is a belief in roman
> catholocism and it is in US law and any other Natural Law based legal
> system, in part, if not in full.
Legal innocence until proven guilty is an Anglo-Saxon legal concept. Many
Roman Catholic countries in Europe hold that one is guilty until he is
> Fact/Question Six: The NSA protect paedophiles on a daily basis with
> the help of the US government, why are these priests and cardinals so
> special? Some protected are Jesuits or Knights of Columbus or belong
> to some other fringe group of friars and cults.
Do you have any references for this?
> Fact/Question Seven: Why sue for money, when one can sue to have
> papers released and prosecuted, is the child's innocents somehow
> something worth charging for? Would it be OK if the priest went to a
> Kiddy Stroll and paid up front with the parishoner's donations?
The American legal system allows monetary damages both as compensation and
to deter future misbehavior. The heirarchy knew this when they obstructed
Instead of coming clean they doubled and re-doubled their bet that they
could keep this from the authorities. Now they've lost and they should pay
> Fact/Question Eight: Why single out one faith? Why ignore cults?
Those which have broken the law should be treated in the same manner.
> Fact/Question: Nine: Priests Are Individuals, and they pledge a vow of
> celibacy, therefore they are not true to there vow nor there vocation;
> they are not priests when engaging in any sexual activity wether the
> other wants it or not.
They continued to be priests because the heirarchy refused to give them the
boot. This is how the heirarchy got in trouble.
> They defrauded the church.
So did the heirarchy, but Rome failed to discipline them. This failure made
Rome an accessory. If Rome were really serious about this it would roll out
its ecclestiacal Big Gun and excommunicate the whole lot.
> The Church does
> not molest anyone, it is a series of buildings and charities that
> exhist as artificial relms for the faith to live within as a safe
> haven and a place of safety. It does not live or make decisions, it
> is administrated by individuals who make vows as well.
In the New Testament the Lord says that the church is made up of the people
who compose the various congregations. The buildings are merely places where
the congregations meet to worship God.
By tolerating predatory sexual misconduct by its clergy the Roman Church has
forfeited its claim to be providing havens of safety.
As a practical matter, the Roman Church is a monolithic authoritarian
institution ruled by a potentate, the Bishop of Rome, who has "divine
infallibility" in matters of church doctrine (or something along those
lines). The Roman Church has been involved in worldly power ever since it
became the official religion of the Roman Empire and thus has been corrupt
over most of its history.
> Any cover up
> is an individual decision, even conspiring is individual to each part
> a person plays in it, most especially when the theology or philosophy
> disallows the practice.
So far, the Roman Church hasn't disciplined any of the heirarchy when they
were found out. If the Roman Church was serious about distancing themselves
from these scandals it would start punishing the transgressors. This hasn't
> Fact/Question Ten: To engage in acts that the theology of the faith
> you preach in a building or session of faith or as a vocation you are
> committing fraud.
The whole Roman Church is committing fraud when they try to pass themselves
off as the source of ultimate moral authority. The Church's entire history
shows that they aren't. In the Middle Ages the Roman Church committed an
even bigger fraud by claiming to have the ultimate truth in matters of
science; hence the persecution of Gallileo.
> Fact/Question Eleven: A non-celebet priest is lay; so a panal of lay
> Catholics is a load of bullshit and won't help anyone. If anything
> it's lay Catholics offering protection to pervert priests and giving
> others the run around, even fooling idiot clergy to sign stuff they
> don't even read.
According to the court cases and news reports, it's the heirarchy who failed
to inform the authorities of criminal activity, thus giving protection to
lawbreakers and becoming lawbreakers themselves.
> In Conclusion: These Lawsuits and The Media Coverage is unfare to
> Roman Catholics and Unfair to those of other faiths and is a violation
> of people's right to practice a religion [A belief in one god] of
> their choice without harrasment.
By falsely claiming to be the ultimate moral authority, by trying to
incorporate their dogma into American law, by being intolerant of other
faiths, by refusing to discipline its own clergy, and by failing to obey
both its own and American laws the Roman Church has been unfair to all
Americans, including its parishioners.
The whole thing is rotten and should be done away with.
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