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From: gubnah_hypcrthntr@www.limbo.gov.su.us (The Voltairian™/Black Jester™/Closet Libert
Newsgroups: alt.mindcontrol,alt.politics.libertarian,bc.politics,alt.sex.strip-clubs,van
Subject: Re: LIBTR; BCP; BC; VAN; VANG: Father Bugger The Lay Priest, Pun Intended. :ASS
Organization: Closet Libertarian™/Black Magus™/Bible Thumper™/Blow Load™
References: <3ded924f.5340517@news.aebc.com>
wrote:
>> [Voltairian]
>> The Pandamia of evil sociopathic perverts in the Catholic Priesthood
>> is getting plenty of exposure, and I can't help but think that is a
>> good thing, especially when I am a Roman Catholic and belong to a
>> religion and am of a country (US of A) that allows me the right to
>> think, question and debate issues.
>
>[Crow]
>Last I heard you were in Vancouver; I didn't know that BC had becum a state.
>
>
>> [Voltairian]
>
>{el snippo}
>
>> Fact one/Question: The ignorance of priests is no doubt a problem,
>> this "they are misunderstood and mentally ill" bull shit. Sociopaths
>> are incurable evil low lifes.
>
>[Crow]
>The legal profession is full of sociopathic types, and they tend to be
>prevalent in politics. Most of the folks on this NG were happy to have a
>notorious sociopath who shoulda been put in jail for perjury and obstruction
>of justice as POTUS. Your characterization of sociopaths fits him to a T.
>
>I wouldn't be surprised if some of the pedophile priests try the ole "victim
>of sexual addiction" ploy the Clintonites rolled out during the impeachment.
>
>Note that this could serve PL's well: we could say we're victims of "lapp
>addiction" insteada saying we're pervs. And ... it's politically correct!
I agree, it's anywhere where trust is to be abused. Politics,
Priesthood, Patronizing Cartooning, Espionage, etc.... Clinton was
and is a sociopath. A man who had no conscience what-so-ever and I
suspect the same of King George (Jr.) The Second.
>> [Voltairian]
>> This isn't personal, it's just a fact;
>> a sociopath has no business being a priest or out of any prison.
>
>[Crow]
>We've got a long way to go. See above.
Oddly enough they have no business being outside of jail, I think even
their caskette should be behind bars.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact Two/Question: Priest and so on could stand to know something
>> about sociology, psychology and psychiatry; they seem rather ignorant
>> regarding this.
>
>[Crow]
>You don't need higher education to know that cornholing young boys is wrong.
>The current scandal is due to moral turpitude of the clergy combined with
>abuse of power by the heirarchy in obstructing justice. Both are crimes in
>this country.
And in the church, but so is the presumption of guilt and so is
collective blame. The thing about sociopaths is that the don't care
if it's right or wrong as long as it suits their specific fantasy,
it's the evil that drives them.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact Three/Question: The Catholic Church (TRC) gets sued and all
>> parishoners and dioceans get the shaft, why should they and their
>> children suffer because and individual defrauds the church and
>> violates their vows. Whether it's some lieing Cardinal or some
>> perverted paedophile? They shouldn't. This is unjust.
>
>[Crow]
>The Roman Church has authority over all its clergy, etc. Therefore it can be
>held accountable when its clergy (including heirarchy) commit crimes. This
>is just another way that the Roman Church victimizes its parishioners. The
>obvious solution is to exercise your freedom of religion and join a
>law-abiding church.
No, only the specific criminals in the church; clergy or not; are
responsible. It's aboutt personal responsibility. Not everyone is
the pervert and not everyone is the obstructer. Also keep in mind the
confession complications. What about the US and even the US-CAN
Government for being slow to prosecute and when they do often give
paedophiles a slap on the wrist?
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact Four/Question: One Reason for some assumed cover ups can be
>> the presumption of innocence
>
>[Crow]
>Our courts are there to make determinations of guilt or innocence. They
>can't do this when there is obstruction of justice.
>
>The coverups are due to the Church's "holier than thou" attitude and belief
>that it is the ultimate moral authority. They hid the truth because they
>wanted to keep their parishioners under their thumbs. The priests wouldn't
>be able to boss anyone around if the parishioners knew they were sinners and
>lawbreakers.
They are human, the theology tells them that they are capable of sin,
and unlike born-agains and reformists they are allowed to question and
read theology for themselves. Not all of them are though; many are
exceptional and humble those of us humble enough to recognize this.
The church does teach that everyone including clergy has faults, even
if it's intellectual or constructive and not moral.
>This also undercuts the Roman Church's goal of eliminating abortion and
>birth control. If the Roman Church can't control the sexual behavior of its
>own clergy why should it presume it can micromanage the sex and/or
>reproductive lives of free Americans?
It shouldn't have to control anyone, everyone should control
themselves; it's an existential belief system, if they fail in their
priestly vows, let alone their confirmation and baptismal vows they
committ fraud against the church and the church is a victim of them as
well as anyone else.
I don't often hear or see the Church trying to illiminate
birthcontrol and abortion on a legal level, maybe some questionable
indvidual in a coller at a protest here and there, but that is usually
BS, but on an opinion level it opposes it, but on the legal level the
Roman Church does not, some rogue churches do though; the only
congressional priest is a Democrat and a Jesuit.
>> [Voltairian]
>> and the separation of church and state clause
>> that both institutions follow.
>
>[Crow]
>The First Amendment prohibits the Federal Government from establishing a
>state church. The Roman Church wants to make its dogma part of American law,
>thus violating the spirit of the First Amendment. Subsequent case law also
>prevents any state from establishing a state church. The First Amendment
>does not give any religion immunity from American law.
No, it's too late; the protestant minority already did it when they
brought in a congressional chaplain. There is no state Catholic
Church and if there is one it will go the way of the English Catholic
Church and become Ameriglan.
>> [Voltairian]
>> The church needs to assess and try a
>> accused priest before ousting them and having the authorities get a
>> shot at them,
>
>[Crow]
>This is known as obstruction of justice. The church has a legal obligation
>to report crimes to the secular authorities in this country, so the secular
>authorities can make the determination of whether to press charges.
Does a person not have the right to the presumption of innocence as
much as a right to keep and bare arms and not have the government
further one religion over another?
U.S. Constitution
Bill Of Rights.
Article IV.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Article V.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except
in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when
in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any
person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of
life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty ,privacy, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation.
Article VI.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of
the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted
with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for
obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of
Counsel for his defence.
Article VII.
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed
twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no
fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of
the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Article VIII.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Article IX.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
>> [Voltairian]
>> and if the authorities want them first, they have to
>> operate in the same manner.
>
>[Crow]
>The First Amendment does not place any religion above the secular
>authorities in this country. You seem to advocating the situation in the
>Middle Ages, when the Roman Church's clergy were above the laws of mere
>states. This is the attitude that got the Chuch into legal trouble to begin
>with. It also violates the obligation for Christians to obey the secular
>authorities as per the Book of Romans.
I was arguing equal protection under the law. Presumption of
innocence and things of that nature for the fellow who calls himself a
priest, nun, rabi, cleric or what ever. Does a person who is
suspected to have defrauded the Church in making a false vow, and
raped a child, and possibly tried to cover it up either because of
mutual interest or some bleeding heart crap about therapy be denied
due process??????? The greater the charge against the criminal the
more in favor the law leans towards and in favor of the accused.
Child Rape is as serious as it gets; unless they wave their rights,
they keep them. The only people or individuals for sure have waved
their rights are spies.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
>> [Voltairian]
>> Naturally a conviction in the US courts
>> should be enough for a priest to be defrocked.
>
>[Crow]
>It should be, but I wouldn't bet on it.
What would you know? Do compare a Jesuit colledge to a Roman Catholic
Priest??? Are you a free mason????
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact Five/Question: Innoncence till proven guilty is a belief in roman
>> catholocism and it is in US law and any other Natural Law based legal
>> system, in part, if not in full.
>
>[Crow]
>Legal innocence until proven guilty is an Anglo-Saxon legal concept. Many
>Roman Catholic countries in Europe hold that one is guilty until he is
>proven innocent.
Not the church. Not the United States. Not any truly free nation.
Do you oppose the concept of innocence until proven guilty or do you
have the English concept of law in mind; like Canada, if the US
Constitution wasn't there for us as well; guilty till proven innocent.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact/Question Six: The NSA protect paedophiles on a daily basis with
>> the help of the US government, why are these priests and cardinals so
>> special? Some protected are Jesuits or Knights of Columbus or belong
>> to some other fringe group of friars and cults.
>
>[Crow]
>Do you have any references for this?
I've been posting this stuff for some time now. Mother Divine,
Carmalite, etc....
http://myegotimes.virtualave.net/TM/
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact/Question Seven: Why sue for money, when one can sue to have
>> papers released and prosecuted, is the child's innocents somehow
>> something worth charging for? Would it be OK if the priest went to a
>> Kiddy Stroll and paid up front with the parishoner's donations?
>
>[Crow]
>The American legal system allows monetary damages both as compensation and
>to deter future misbehavior. The heirarchy knew this when they obstructed
>justice.
Yeah, I'm sure someone evil will never do something evil in gods house
again if it means it goes bankrupt. Are you a fool??? Do you know
what a sociopath is??????? Do you think they can get therapy for it
as well???? Are you a bleeding heart paedophile sympathiser who wants
religion to suffer and not individuals. Blame the devil, blame god,
blame all catholics, blame institutions but forget individual
responsibility...is this your way? The hierarchy obstructed nothing,
individuals within it did. If that. This is all alledged.
>Instead of coming clean they doubled and re-doubled their bet that they
>could keep this from the authorities. Now they've lost and they should pay
>up.
You know how hard it is to make sense of things when you get constant
run arounds by people interested in keeping a child molester in the
priesthood? Why should they pay up???? Are the children kiddy
prostitutes for the whoring of pimp daddy litigator???? Is it better
that some priest or his church pays for the rape in cash, check or
credit card????????
Your a typicalbleeding heart lawsuit loving KKKlaman KKKonservative
who thinks lawsuits solve problems.
This happens in all religions and all cults, the only difference is
that a religion opposes it and cult doesn't. Why not take them all
down with suits????
"If You Have A Lawsuit, Your Goods, Your Honor, Your Very
Life Depends On The Very Interpretation Of A Book You Never
Read." -- Francois "Voltaire" Marie Arouet; Phil. Dictionary.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact/Question Eight: Why single out one faith? Why ignore cults?
>
>[Crow]
>Those which have broken the law should be treated in the same manner.
With jail not lawsuits.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact/Question: Nine: Priests Are Individuals, and they pledge a vow of
>> celibacy, therefore they are not true to there vow nor there vocation;
>> they are not priests when engaging in any sexual activity wether the
>> other wants it or not.
>
>[Crow]
>They continued to be priests because the heirarchy refused to give them the
>boot. This is how the heirarchy got in trouble.
I suspect some hierarchy were blithering idiots, or were running there
own investigation, oddly enough they do it as quickly and efficiently
as government does.
>> [Voltairian]
>> They defrauded the church.
>
>[Crow]
>So did the heirarchy, but Rome failed to discipline them. This failure made
>Rome an accessory. If Rome were really serious about this it would roll out
>its ecclestiacal Big Gun and excommunicate the whole lot.
Oh please, what "the heirarchy?" It's all part of that and they
aren't one mind. The RC church is not collectivist.
>> [Voltairian]
>> The Church does
>> not molest anyone, it is a series of buildings and charities that
>> exhist as artificial relms for the faith to live within as a safe
>> haven and a place of safety. It does not live or make decisions, it
>> is administrated by individuals who make vows as well.
>
>[Crow]
>In the New Testament the Lord says that the church is made up of the people
>who compose the various congregations. The buildings are merely places where
>the congregations meet to worship God.
Why should people lose that place because of the acts of others, or
the lack of action of others.
>By tolerating predatory sexual misconduct by its clergy the Roman Church has
>forfeited its claim to be providing havens of safety.
Prove they tolerate it, and when I say they, I say all or 2/3s of them
at least?
>As a practical matter, the Roman Church is a monolithic authoritarian
>institution ruled by a potentate, the Bishop of Rome, who has "divine
>infallibility" in matters of church doctrine (or something along those
>lines). The Roman Church has been involved in worldly power ever since it
>became the official religion of the Roman Empire and thus has been corrupt
>over most of its history.
Oh please, no one knocks on my door because I don't go to mass on
sunday, the last time I was harrassed by an institution it was
Scientology.
The Holy Roman Empire tried to rule it. Because of people like St.
Francis of Assissi, Anthony and Gregory to say the least teaching
people to read and encouraging theological knowlledge the corruption
ended in the main church, the rest is fringe. Fringe groups are the
problem, not the main church.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Any cover up
>> is an individual decision, even conspiring is individual to each part
>> a person plays in it, most especially when the theology or philosophy
>> disallows the practice.
>
>[Crow]
>So far, the Roman Church hasn't disciplined any of the heirarchy when they
>were found out. If the Roman Church was serious about distancing themselves
>from these scandals it would start punishing the transgressors. This hasn't
>happened.
I'm not sure their equiped, they might be as bleeding hearted about it
as you are. They often got taughrt in 80s what the rest of us were
lied to about, it's a sickness and it can be cured with therapy; they
haven't wised up yet to the sociopathic behavior and the fact that
they are evil and will never change. They were rotten before they
were priests.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact/Question Ten: To engage in acts that the theology of the faith
>> you preach in a building or session of faith or as a vocation you are
>> committing fraud.
>
>[Crow]
>The whole Roman Church is committing fraud when they try to pass themselves
>off as the source of ultimate moral authority. The Church's entire history
>shows that they aren't. In the Middle Ages the Roman Church committed an
>even bigger fraud by claiming to have the ultimate truth in matters of
>science; hence the persecution of Gallileo.
Yeah, how horrible of them, they saved him from moron villiagers who
tried to burn him to death for what he had theorised and gave him a
safe place to study and write. Monarchy is the evil. Especially
Monarchy who sees dogma as the way to rule small minds. Such as GW
Bush The Second.
>> [Voltairian]
>> Fact/Question Eleven: A non-celebet priest is lay; so a panal of lay
>> Catholics is a load of bullshit and won't help anyone. If anything
>> it's lay Catholics offering protection to pervert priests and giving
>> others the run around, even fooling idiot clergy to sign stuff they
>> don't even read.
>
>[Crow]
>According to the court cases and news reports, it's the heirarchy who failed
>to inform the authorities of criminal activity, thus giving protection to
>lawbreakers and becoming lawbreakers themselves.
Criminal Activity, or alledged criminal activity?????
>> [Voltairian]
>> In Conclusion: These Lawsuits and The Media Coverage is unfare to
>> Roman Catholics and Unfair to those of other faiths and is a violation
>> of people's right to practice a religion [A belief in one god] of
>> their choice without harrasment.
>
>[Crow]
>By falsely claiming to be the ultimate moral authority, by trying to
>incorporate their dogma into American law, by being intolerant of other
>faiths, by refusing to discipline its own clergy, and by failing to obey
>both its own and American laws the Roman Church has been unfair to all
>Americans, including its parishioners.
>
>The whole thing is rotten and should be done away with.
The RC church calls the Liturgy, aka the theology the ultimate moral
authority and thanks St. T. A. science is part of the moral
understanding as well. Real science, not cult science like quantum
physics.
Docta Gov. Admr. Count Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday; PhG™/D
Aka The Pyromaniac of Madison County.
Writer, Humorist, and everything else under the moon.
[Also said to be a multi-trilionare businessman and Navy SEAL]
Vancouver, Neo Sumer/Olympia, Washington/Who knows where else...
The Official Black Jester Website: http://www.blackjester.com/
My Ego Times: http://myegotimes.virtualave.net/
Dictionary: http://myegotimes.virtualave.net/dictionary/
Election 2002: http://myegotimes.virtualave.net/election.links/2002/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"As you have the power, sir, to do some service to letters, I implore
you not to clip the wings of our writers so closely, nor turn into
barndoor fowls those who, allowed a start, might become eagles;
reasonable liberty permits the mind to soar--slavery makes it creep."
-- Voltaire [A Letter To A First Commissioner]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work
and then gets elected and proves it. -P.J. O'Rourke
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There may not be an 'I' in team, but there is an 'I' in Libertarian
(in fact 2)" -- Gölök Buday, April of 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...I would have wished that no one in the state that could claim
he was above the law, and that no one from outside the state could
dictate a law [Fuck the UN] that the state was obliged to recognize.
For regardless of how the government is formally constituted, if
there is a single man not subject to the law, all the others are
necessarily at that man' mercy." -- Jean-Jacques Rousseau;
To The Republic Of Geneva: Discourse On Inequality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...It follows that if in such a fortunate situation it (the country/
state) would have nothing to fear but itself, and if citizens were
trained in arms, it would be more for maintaining that soldiery
spirit and noble courage that are so well suited for freedom and
cultivate the taste for it rather than from the necessity for it's
citizens' actual defence. -- Jean-Jacques Rousseau;
To The Republic Of Geneva: Discourse On Inequality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Freedom can only exist if all laws apply to all people." --
Jean-Jacques Rousseau; possible paraphrase.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Think, it's not illegal yet." -- George Clinton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A Press That Is Not Free Isn't A Press At All" -- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A Government, Of All Things, Is To Be Questioned And
Inspected" -- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"At The Very Least, Insanity Isn't Unsanitary" -- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"it is an abomination for a person's tax dollars to be used to
further a faith to which he does not subscribe. You want to
pray, go to church. Nobody's objecting." -- Thomas Jefferson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am the first Prime Minister of this country of neither
altogether English nor French origin. So I determined to bring
about a Canadian citizenship that knew no hyphenated
consideration." - Prime Minister Diefenbaker, March 29,
1958, Maclean's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We shall never build the nation which our potential resources
make possible by dividing ourselves into Anglophones,
Francophones, multiculturalphones, or whatever kind of
phoneys you choose. I say: Americans, first, last, and always!"
- Gölök Buday, Purposely misquoting the Chiefs Quote For
His Own Agenda (2002).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong."
- Prime Minister Diefenbaker, March 11, 1958
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As long as there is a drop of blood in my body they won't
stop me from talking about freedom." - Prime Minister
Diefenbaker, June 3, 1962, Sudbury, Ontario.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Freedom includes the right to say what others may object
to and resent... The essence of citizenship is to be tolerant of
strong and provocative words." - Prime Minister Diefenbaker,
April 9, 1970, House of Commons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I Am A Surrealists" -- What Salvador Dali Said When
Asked Why He Didn't Belong To The Surrealists (this may
be true, regarding why actors tend not to belong to the
Group of Actors and Libertarians don't always belong to the
Libertarian Party.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I prefer to go to church, not have church come to me."
-- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's almost as if he [Bill Clinton] spent 8 years pissing all over
the presidency and on his last day went, 'oh! missed a spot."
-- Lewis Black on Rich Pardon, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Honesty Makes An Opinion Important, Dishonesty Makes
It Irrelevant (unimportant even)" -- Gölök Buday; 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"An Opinion, Like An Axe, Is Only As Good As The Person
Who Wields It." -- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Value Of A Comment Derives From The Honesty Of The
Orator And/Or Writer." -- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Height Of Genius Is The Ability To Conceal It." --
George Bernard Shaw
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Brevity is the soul of wit." -- William Shakespeare (hard to
believe, I know.).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There Is A Difference Between Community Involvement and
Being Involved (Or A Part Of) In A Community." -- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
We trained hard but it seemed that every time we were
beginning to form into teams, we would be reorganized. I was
to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by
reorganizing. And what a wonderful method it can be for
creating the illusion of progress while producing inefficiency,
confusion and demoralization. -- Gaius Petronius Arbiter,
1st century AD; Satyricon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If You Have A Lawsuit, Your Goods, Your Honor, Your Very
Life Depends On The Very Interpretation Of A Book You Never
Read." -- Francois "Voltaire" Marie Arouet; Phil. Dictionary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Suppression Of A Word Is What Gives It Power." --
Lenny Bruce.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Window Peepers, Authoritarians In General, Tend To Be The
Biggest Scoundrels." -- Gölök Buday
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes, It's Not A Good Idea To Listen For, But A Good
Question." -- Gölök Buday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Small Government's A Start" -- Gölök Buday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Funny how diversity is ok unless it's of opinion or philosophical."
-- Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday; On "Divisive Opinions
and Issues;" December 2nd, 2002.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS I am not, nor have been, known as Grant Buday
PPS Not Che from che-lives.com
†
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