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From: Vince Brannigan
Subject: Re: [NEWS]: Probe: U.S. Knew of Jet Terror Plots
References: <3D959025.284F175B@verizon.net> <email@example.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:43:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:43:28 EDT
"Fred J. McCall" wrote:
> Vince Brannigan wrote:
> :Brian Sharrock wrote:
> :> I draw to the attention of the readers, that Vince is utilising his
> :> frequent technique of concentrating on one word 'villian' and trying to
> :> divert the topic away from his original statement 'crimes ... do not
> :> exist until someone is convicted ... '. If it makes Vince more happy;
> :> I concede his point and instruct the jury to disregard the word villian
> :> and substitute the term accused. The jury will of course, remember the
> :> elephant and consider that the set of villiams contains a large set of
> :> people who've been accused and a smaller set that've been previously
> :> convicted. My understanding is that a crimes exists when a law is broken
> :> and does not rely on subsequent conviction.
> :when does a "penalty" come into existence in football? when the "event" occurs
> :or when the official makes an appropriate signal (deliberately not limiting
> :myself to american football but also including the game the world calls
> Note that legal trials have a separate penalty phase that follows the
nothing to do with a finding of guilt.
> One can commit an infraction and not get caught.
but is it an infraction what does it mean to Not get caught?
> One can
> also not commit an infraction and get called for one anyway. Neither
> of these changes the actual facts with regard to whether the
> infraction was actually committed, which is why tape review is
you are missing the point, an event becomes an infraction when eh relevant official
declares it. The official doe s not discover it, the official declares. it.
> :> Not many people that I know use the word _criem_ so I don't know what
> :> purpose it serves. Answer the point about Coroners' Court verdicts
> :> of 'unlawful Killing' does such a verdict have a 'legal structure'?
> :> Take into consideration that such juries are not allowed to name
> :> a suspect, not even who they consider to be the villain.
> :There is an ancient maxim of the the law "Nullum crimen sine poena" which is
> :translated as No crime without punishment.
> Why do I get the feeling you're about to misrepresent what this really
> :Ordinary crimes do not exist separate from punishment. (the maxim has other
> :meanings, but this is the one which is relevant to this discussion.
> Nonsense! This implies that all those 'unsolved crimes' are not
> crimes at all, since there is never any punishment. That's merely
not it is not.
> :As and example
> : TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
> : PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 51 - HOMICIDE
> : Sec. 1111. Murder (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being
> :with malice aforethought.
> Note that it does not require trial.
of course it does. that is why it says "unlawful" the declaration that a killing
gis unlawful is the outcome of a legal process. Until you've the legal process you
> It speaks to WHAT IS DONE, not
> what is found. One can commit a murder, plea bargain it down to some
> lesser included offense, and suddenly no murder was committed? No,
> that just means that no CHARGE is made.
no. because there is no concept of committing a murder only of being found guilty of
> :Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait,
> :or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing;
> :or committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson,
> :escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual
> :abuse or sexual abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated from a
> :premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human
> :being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree. Any other
> :murder is murder in the second degree.
> Note that once again, the law is speaking to WHAT IS DONE. A fallible
> court may not have all the facts, but that doesn't change the facts.
no because the term "unlawful" is in the definition. Murder does not exist separate
from the legal analysis of the legality of the act.
> : (b) Within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United
> :States, Whoever is guilty of murder in the first degree shall be punished by
> :death or by imprisonment for life;
> : Whoever is guilty of murder in the second degree, shall be imprisoned for any
> :term of years or for life.
> :now when do you know that a "Murder" has occurred? you know when someone is
> :found "guilty" . The statute does not define murder and then say "whoever
> :commits a murder"
> It also doesn't say "found guilty"; it says merely "guilty".
Guilt does not exist until the outcome of the process. no one is guilty without the
> presumably a court cannot execute a punishment on a crime that it has
> insufficient facts to prove, but that is irrelevant to the issue at
not the issue, even remotely
> :A jury is asked to determine whether a specific person is guilty of a specific
> :murder they make both findings simultaneously.
> But whatever they find does not change THE FACTS.
But guilt is not a fact. it is a declaration It can be wiped away by a pardon that
does not change the facts. .
> Lots of people
> commit murder and get off.
no they don't. they kill people and are not convicted. killing a person is homicide.
> Does the ignorance or incompetence of the
> court mean that no murder occurred? Of course not. That would be
> merely silly.
its the law. the difference between killing as murder, or execution or something
else is a legal declaration, not a fact.
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