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Subject: Re: [NEWS]: Probe: U.S. Knew of Jet Terror Plots
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 03:56:48 GMT
Organization: MediaCom High Speed Internet
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 03:56:48 GMT
Vince Brannigan wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>>> I agree with Vince in so far as it takes a court judgement
>>> to decide a crime has been committed but disagree if he
>>> insists that only a trial in a criminal court can decide that.
>>> However its clear that a criminal court has the final
>>> word. Say for example that the coroners court declares
>>> a averdict of unlawful killing, a defendant is arrested and put
>>> on trial and is acquitted on the grounds of self defense.
>>> In that case no crime was committed despite the
>>> finding of the coroners court.
>> This means the Court made a finding of an individuals legal guilt or
>> lack of proof thereof. It does not alter the facts. I think the
>> main argument has been, the old if a tree falls and no one is there
>> does it make a noise.
> define a noise and you get yoru answer. does it make vibrations inthe
> eair of course. is that the definitiono f a "noise"
>> no one witnesses the event and no court ever has a hearing or trial
>> does it change the fact that a crime occurred. Vince maintains no
>> crime. I maintain a crime occurred for which no conviction was had.
> And your citation for this belief? and how do you dela with a pardon?
Pardon (Webster's) "1: To free from penalty 2 : to allow (an offense) to
pass without punishment : forgive." Does not mean a crime was not
committed, just forgiven.
Pardon (Barron's Law Dictionary) "an exercixe of the sovereign prepogative
of mercy, relieving the peron on whom it is bestoed from futher punishment
and from legal diabilities because of the crime named."
Named, not convicted.
No conduct constitutes a crime unless it is described as a crime in
this title or in another statute of this state. However, this Code
section does not affect the power of a court to punish for contempt
or to employ any sanction authorized by law for the enforcement of
an order, civil judgment, or decree."
notice it says conduct constitutes a crime when it is so described in the
code. Nothing about it being a crime after conviction. It also gives the
court the power to punish for something that would appear not to be a crime.
and the Georiga code defines a crime as
A "crime" is a violation of a statute of this state in which there
is a joint operation of an act or omission to act and intention or
So I still maintain a crime can be committed whether there is a conviction
or not. I understand the concept of defenses and justification and all of
that, but by their very nature the are what their names imply, a defense to
a "crime", justification for the commission of a "crime". Because one of
those may or may not come into play is part of the "legal" response. And in
a more general sense in a case where none of those things apply the facts
have not changed, whether someone is arrested and convicted or not a crime
could still have occurred. Does that mean one does everytime, no.
Sometimes what appears to be a crime may not be. But that doesn't mean that
other times the facts are the facts and a crime, for which no arrest or
conviction where had, still occurred. Don't confuse what is required to
prove something in a court of law, with what happened. In the real world
things happen. Sometimes people do things that the law defines as a crime
and for hundreds of reasons are not prosecuted. That does not change that
what they did is defined as a crime in the code and is in fact a crime.
Their arrest, prosecution, conviction or not of them doesn't change that
they did it.
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